Episode 44: Brandon Feldhouse (Arsenal Yards)
Meet Brandon Feldhouse! He's the General Manager over at Arsenal Yards here in Watertown. For this conversation, we get into his early years in malls (including Copley Place in downtown Boston), how using history and art helped build the character of Arsenal Yards, how he views building a dynamic mixed-use community, how he helped lead an initiative to divert 100% of the property's waste from landfills, and we end with his thoughts on the future of Arsenal Yards.
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Find out more about Arsenal Yards at www.arsenalyards.com or reach out at hello@arsenalyards.com or bfeldhouse@wilderco.com.
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Thanks to podcast promotional partner the Watertown Business Coalition, a nonprofit organization focused on connecting local businesses and strengthening our community. Check them out at https://watertownbusinesscoalition.com/.
This program is supported in part by a grant from the Watertown Cultural Council, a local agency which is supported by the Mass Cultural Council, a state agency.
Transcript
Matt: 0:07
Hi there, welcome to the Little Local Conversations podcast. I'm your host, Matt Hanna. Every episode, I sit down for a conversation with someone in Watertown to discover the people, places, stories, and ideas of Watertown. This time I sat down with Brandon Feldhouse, who is the general manager over at Arsenal Yards. So I'll let him introduce himself then we'll get into the conversation.
Brandon: 0:26
So I'm Brandon Feldhouse, I’m the general manager here at Arsenal Yards. The day-to-day management, the financial accountability for the center, the relationship between the tenants, the other uses that are here, just kind of all fall under my purview, and that kind of liaison or bridge between everything that kind of happens on a regular basis.
Matt: 0:47
You manage generally. Cool. So we'll get into what you do now and Arsenal Yards, but first I always like to go back in people's history and kind of how you got into this type of work. Like what got you interested in working in these types of businesses or whatever you want to call this type of thing.
Brandon: 1:02
I don't know if it's cliche, but ironically enough, my brother was really the impetus for me to get into the real estate world, malls specifically. My brother worked for Simon for many years. He was actually with Simon when this property was still Simon Mall before Boylston started the adventure that created what is here today. But there was an operations position open. I'm just really an operationally minded individual, love the way things work, systems. I love to learn so it was fascinating to me to be able to work in these different facilities and just be able to understand how everything works mechanically, electrically, the tenants, businesses, their business models. How does everything work together, how does everybody cohabitate in this environment? And being able to join as an operations director was really a great start for me and I certainly gravitated towards it and continued on.
Matt: 1:49
Yeah. So do you have a particular moment where you remember experiencing that type of work and being like, oh, this is really cool or this really speaks to me. Do you have a particular story of something clicking for you?
Brandon: 1:59
It's hard to touch on one specific thing. I mean I had a lot of great experiences. I spent a little bit more than nine years with Simon at different properties all over New England and every property was a new learning experience. Join a new team, new property, new infrastructure. Some cases there were similarities and in some cases there were differences, but you know, it's a great ability to continue to learn and grow and hone your skills every step of the way. And I think one of my favorite properties that I was at was actually Copley Place. It was just a really interesting property because it's actually 14 stories. You've got the turnpike ramp that wraps around the central garage and it's kind of a labyrinth in its own way. You know you've got the office portion of it, it's kind of its own mixed-use environment, which was, I guess, maybe that aha moment that I really enjoyed this kind of mixed-use environment and was really kind of maybe the gravitational pull to get me to leave and join the Wilder team to come manage Arsenal Yards.
Matt: 2:58
So what is it about mixed-use? Why is it an interesting thing to you, but also why do you think it's such an interesting place?
Brandon: 3:04
It's so much more dynamic. I mean you can do retail anywhere, right? Massachusetts we're so saturated in retail. You know it's interesting too because everybody's kind of like poo-pooed on retail and malls. It's honestly probably the asset class to be in right now. But when you've got this mixed use environment where you have a true kind of community within your area, again I think the best way for me to describe it is dynamic, right, it's ever-changing. It's more exciting. You've got different aspects for each type of business, whether it's office, life sciences, residential, or the retail portion. And just being able to bring something to your micro community and then how does that benefit the greater community beyond you.
Matt: 3:49
And what are some of the biggest challenges with dealing with the different needs and wants of those different areas within that micro community?
Brandon: 3:58
There's quite a few challenges, right. It's just making sure everything operationally works for each segment. Everybody's going to have their own needs. Whether it's specific to their business, like, say, a lab, they're going to have specific requirements for what they need for their facilities. Retail tenants are going to have different needs, different expectations. How do you cater to the public that comes through your common areas? What does that look like and how do you service that? How do you make sure that the amenities are welcoming to the tenants that are there, whether it's residential or office or life science or whatever that use is? How do you create and curate that environment that is welcoming, that people want to be there for, and how do you continue to evolve it?
Matt: 4:43
Right, I'm sure we could go down many different things in that one. So you were at Copley Place. What other places around have you worked at that people might know that you've had a hand in?
Brandon: 4:51
Well, I guess I can take you through the timeline. 2015, I started with Simon as an area operations director for Square One Mall and Liberty Tree Mall, so Saugus and Danvers. I was there for about three years really honing my operations skills, learning those facilities and figuring out the different systems, obviously learning Simon, their ways, and really working on my financial acumen to become more proficient and run a smarter operation, so to say. After that I got an opportunity to go to Mall at Rockingham Park in New Hampshire. Similar but a larger center, a much higher volume of people and traffic. Similar in the aspect of, like, actual gross leaseable area between the two centers, but having it all in one. Being able to really make your impact on one center was nice versus being split between the two centers.
Brandon: 5:42
In my opinion, it's always harder to split your focus but do the same job versus being able to really knock it out of the park at one place. So it was a nice opportunity to be afforded to go to, you know, a more recently renovated property and one that seemed to have, you know, more promise, more investment. There were different partners there that pushed for different things and it was nice to have that experience also to understand what other interests of ownership might think for different pieces. And then after Mall at Rockingham Park, I went to Copley Place. Covid was also an interesting factor upon all of that.
Matt: 6:17
So that's where you were during 2020.
Brandon: 6:18
Yeah, that's when I got to Copley. It was October of 2020. I joined there as the operations director but I was quickly promoted to the assistant GM. You know, that's when I really got to kind of delve into the office piece of it and worked very closely with Wayfair. They were the largest tenant, occupied about 80% of the office tower there. It was their world headquarters. So that tenant, that environment, going through COVID and helping them navigate their return to office which was really more of a hybrid situation at that time. But to work through all the different things that they wanted to do while working through all of the Boston mandates for what we had to do for COVID and everything that kind of went along with that. And then you had the retail piece, infrastructure challenges that come along with a 14-story building, the contractual pieces, the administrative stuff that you've got to do with it. So it's a challenging property, very dynamic, very fast moving. You throw in mass DOT because you've got a portion of tunnel work that you've got to be responsible for, because Copley they built a roof over the Mass Pike so you've got to maintain it, right. So there's a lot of interesting factors that play into it.
Brandon: 7:30
It was a great learning experience. I really enjoyed the time there. The general manager, Bill Kenny, great guy, still there. He was a great mentor to work with, really helped me hone some Excel skills. He's the Excel guru, so if I ever need something I could always give him a shout too, which is nice. But
Matt: 7:45
What's the formula I need for this?
Brandon: 7:46
Well, you know, he's really the one that got me on the pivot tables. But yeah, that was nice, learned a lot.
Brandon: 7:52
And then my first opportunity to manage a shopping center by myself was Auburn Mall. And I managed Auburn Mall for a little bit over a year. Then we had some more movement within the region and Shops at Chestnut Hill had opened up. And then I was at Shops at Chestnut Hill before I came here and joined the Wilder team.
Matt: 8:08
And when was that?
Brandon: 8:09
So I actually joined the Wilder team April of last year. A little bit under a year, so still, I guess you could say in the honeymoon phase, right. There's still an awful lot of learning, but I will probably always tell you that I am always learning.
Matt: 8:22
Cool, so I guess let's just dig right into Arsenal, your time here then. So when you came in here, what were your initial thoughts of this property and its state at that time?
Brandon: 8:30
Yeah, so I thought it was an amazing transformation, you know.
Matt: 8:34
Were you familiar with this area beforehand?
Brandon: 8:36
Oh yeah. Yeah I was definitely familiar with Arsenal Mall. It'd been quite some time and I'd known about the purchase. I think I knew about the purchase a little bit earlier than maybe some others, just because of the relationship with my brother.
Brandon: 8:49
He kind of told me about the sale. Forget where he was at the time he might have been managing the shops at Chestnut. Because Bob Watagaza was the last GM here and he was basically like my brother's mentor when he had started with Simon.
Brandon: 9:02
But to circle back, just knowing what it was and the transformation that had already taken place, you know, just from what I had gone and looked up online and then through the interview process and coming out here and meeting the partners, walking the property with them and seeing the vision that they have created and curated and the efforts that they took to make it into what it is today, you know, is certainly inspiring, right. There's just so many great things I think that they've done here, whether it's the murals, the art that they've brought here. There's a sculpture. There's visual interest that's greater than just some boring facade or some giant building. And I think they've done a good job of making it more dynamic and having that more, I guess, positive vibe than just you know, some cookie cutter development. You know there's plenty of those out there.
Matt: 9:49
Yeah, do you want to talk about that art and murals for a little bit, just to in case people aren't aware of them or don't know much about them.
Brandon: 9:55
Yeah, kind of all over. We've got splashes of art all over. There's some great murals. You know, the door we entered in to come into this building across from J Crew. Got that mural. That mural is also mirrored on the overhead doors that are over by City Works.
Brandon: 10:11
You know, you can take this kind of required, harsh-looking roll-up doors and you really soften it and you make it something that is appealing, that you actually want to look at. Because it's necessary, right, you've got to have trash, unfortunately. You've got to have loading dock areas, you've got to be able to take deliveries. And I think, to be able to soften that and add that artist touch to make it more appealing. It's just a smart move in general. You know, you take these less desirable areas, you make them stand out. People want to see them. You know, unfortunately a few people have hit the doors and we're going to have to get that one redone.
Brandon: 10:45
But the front of this building over by the purple garage, great example. That is an electric room that was part of an original area and they just weren't able to relocate all that electric equipment. So they jazzed it up, they put a nice mural on it and it really brings it to life versus this boring corrugated steel structure, you know, facade, should I say. I think along Greenough Boulevard you've got the wildlife kind of look along the life science building there. It's just transformational to have something like that versus concrete wall, right. That was concrete wall for I couldn't even tell you how many years. Because that was one of the more original buildings. And you can see on some of the walls in here we actually have some pieces of that history and some of those timelines and these were left from the original leasing and I'm sorry that the listeners can't see it, but there's some great history here, you know, with everything that it was.
Matt: 11:39
Yeah, so that's another thing. How do you respect the history of the place while you're building something new on it, right?
Brandon: 11:43
Yeah, that's certainly a challenge. I love what they did, just personally. I definitely did not have any decision in it, but saving the historical brick on the two buildings that are here. I think tearing the mall down was the right thing. They were able to bring housing here that you know is desperately needed everywhere. They were able to create this environment with easy parking, easy shopping, convenient dining, have this nice flow, but maintain that historical building and the historical look and to have the structures remain and not just get torn down to build some sort of cookie cutter. And there's so much character in the brick and some of the exposed steel that's still in there. You know you walk into Majestic Movie Theater. They still have one of the original gantry cranes If you walk in the lobby and you look up. So I love the historical feel. I love that they maintained that character that's here and it's I mean it's truly Watertown.
Matt: 12:37
So what other things do you do to build the character of the place that people might not think about, but are experiencing?
Brandon: 12:43
Great question. I think we try to embody that in almost every decision that we do. Whether it's through our events or working with the community on different events, making the space available to the town for various different things. For instance, Tyler at the city did Watertown Chats here. You know being able to open our green spaces and our event areas up to the community for these community events to support the town, I think that's certainly one way. Not just the aesthetic of it right. Some of the events that we bring we want to, you know like Found. Great response. Almost a little bit too good of a response on this last one.
Matt: 13:22
For people who don't know what is Found?
Brandon: 13:23
So Found is a vintage market and the Found market that we had this year was so successful, we had a few thousand more people than we expected. So in case there's any frustrated listeners, we certainly will have a more appropriate traffic plan in place, should we do it again next year. But Found is a great vintage market, great response. They were here as a pop up a couple of times. They were here through the holiday season and they have a permanent store in Boston.
Matt: 13:52
Gotcha. And so, on the character. When people think of Arsenal Yards in Watertown, what do you want people to think?
Brandon: 13:58
I think what we want is for people to think that it's a dynamic, mixed-use community. We have great retailers, we have great dining options. It's a great place to work, it's a great place to live. And we're a piece of the community.
Matt: 14:11
And how do you go about picking tenants? What's the thought process behind what comes in?
Brandon: 14:15
You know that's always an interesting one, right. Some of it is what we hear about from either residents or our tenants, you know, life sciences or maybe retail tenants, right. Sometimes there's good co-tenancy for the retail tenants and they kind of build off of each other and support each other. So a lot of times it's that feedback. Sometimes it's a retailer that's looking to, or you know, any kind of entertainment use or something like that. I shouldn't just say retailer, right, kind of encompasses a lot. But they're interested in breaking out into a new market. This is a very desirable market. You're just outside of Boston and you're kind of at that gateway and it's a lot easier to get in and out of here. You're not paying for parking. You know the fact that we have so much free parking, I don't think people realize how much parking we actually have. Because we have two parking garages. It's not just what you see on the surface lots.
Matt: 15:02
Yeah. So when you first got here, take us through this past year a little bit. What were your initiatives? Were there any things that you particularly spearheaded? Or was it reacting to things that were already in place? What was that like?
Brandon: 15:13
Yeah, I mean there was a lot to learn. I was leaving a publicly traded company that did things totally different, to join Wilder that is managing the property and part of the partnership. I think the priorities when you're private versus publicly traded are much different, right. I think the attention and care that is put into the property by the partners is phenomenal. They're always here. So I think learning expectations was a big piece of it. Understanding the operations, how are things being executed? A little bit of everything, right. Trash program. What do we offer our tenants? What are our events? You know, how do those flow? How are we generating revenue? All the business component pieces of it. How do we do all of our financial reporting and how do the asset meetings roll? And so there's a big chunk of it. That was that.
Brandon: 16:01
For me, a low hanging fruit this year was our trash program. I think it was an easy way to offer much better service to our tenants, create a more sustainable program than was existing and save a boatload of money at the same time. It was kind of like.
Matt: 16:15
Win, win, win.
Brandon: 16:16
Yeah, I was like where's the loss in this one, right? So we worked with a hauler that I was familiar with from my mall time and did some brainstorming. We came up with some specific equipment and a program and talked about how it’d lay out. So now we can say that 100% of our solid waste is diverted from a landfill. It all goes to a waste to energy facility and we are now able to actually calculate how much cardboard we are being able to recycle. So 100% of the waste is now diverted from a landfill, whereas our prior hauler essentially was taking everything to a landfill that was through a different waste broker. And I liked that we were able to do that, save money for our tenants at the same time, because it's a benefit to them. And really create a better environment.
Brandon: 16:59
We had all these front load trucks. You know, if you're familiar with the trucks, they're going to come in with the forks and they're going to dump it and they'd come at all kinds of different times during operating hours. Well, now we don't have any of these large trash trucks blocking main drive routes while we're trying to push containers out. We kind of control our own destiny. Now we have a couple sets of compactors that actually have little forks on them and it's called a tote dump. And we empty the totes into the compactors every day. So you know tenants never have to worry about an overflowing trash container anymore. And we manage the compactors on an on-call basis to have them emptied. So just to be able to add that level of operational excellence, in a sense, and be able to save money and be more sustainable.
Brandon: 17:40
That was one piece from an operational standpoint. I think from, you know, like a safety security standpoint, for me, is always being as closely involved with the police department as possible. They're going to help us no matter what, right. But if you're a great partner and you can work with them as closely as possible to say, hey, these are the trends we're seeing, what are you seeing in the other areas of the city or East End, what do you think will work? And the thing that floored me the most, and honestly I've worked in a lot of different municipalities, is that they were already doing regular meetings. Ken Swift was leading the charge. He's now Lieutenant Ken Swift and he's in charge of the detective division. So now Mark the Sergeant is now running the meetings and working with the tenants. And it's the greater area right, it's Alexandria is involved, and Best Buy and Target, our retail tenants are involved to make sure that we can work towards reducing shoplifting trends or any other maybe minor theft issues that we've seen. That kind of blew my mind that they were already doing that, and to be able to participate in it gave me an opportunity to say, hey, we can give you a space here. You'll be able to have it to come and go write reports, have a computer here, whatever you need. It's a mi casa su casa type of environment. So we created a space for them within our security office. And they're here on a regular basis and have kind of created a substation. And it's great because it just kind of creates an ability for them to be more efficient with their time on this end of the city. I mean the time it takes you to go from here to the station.
Matt: 19:10
Yeah, the chief was talking at I think it was a business coalition meeting about how it was nice. He was talking about the substation coming up and how that was nice because every time they'd have to go all the way back to the station on the west end of town and file their report and then come back out. So yeah, I think he was appreciative of that.
Brandon: 19:26
I mean, look, it only makes sense. You know it was minimal cost to create a space for them, right, but it's worth it. It's worth it. You're a good partner with them and to make them be able to have that ability to be more efficient, they're only going to do a better job for the city, right, and for the area. It's not just about us, it's about the area.
Matt: 19:46
So why don’t we go through what's a day-to-day like as the general manager of a location like this?
Brandon: 19:50
Every day is different because you never know what's going on. Sometimes you've got challenges that you need to attend to right away. But typically I'll get here as early as I can. Traffic is always that contributing factor, right. But usually get caught up on any emails or any fire drill priorities that you know might pop up. You know, I think that's pretty much normal these days, everything's priority right. So you just kind of pop through those things. I try to schedule my days best I can, depending on what's going on, work around all the different deadlines that we have for financial reporting or different pieces. So there's a good chunk of my day that is, I guess you could say, administratively heavy.
Brandon: 20:26
I try to get out a couple times a day and walk the property, freezing cold or sweating and hot. Get out there, talk to tenants, see what's going on, see if they've got any challenges. I like to walk the property with our operations manager so we can kind of tag team and address anything that we see or at least get eyes on something we want to address. Plus, I love perspective, right, I know I'm going to look at something different. You would look at something different. Anybody else in my office would look at something different. So I try to always walk with somebody else and then bounce things off of people. And then that way you know it could spur another project. You might see something, identify something and say, hey, we should do something about this. You know we do that almost daily.
Matt: 21:03
Yeah that's a good way. You can't have all the ideas.
Brandon: 21:05
Absolutely not right, we're a team. We're a team. I'm huge on including everybody in everything, even our contracted services. I try to treat everybody like they're part of the team. You know, you can go the, well, you're not a Wilder or you're not a Boylston employee. We're all partners. We're all working towards the same objective. It doesn't matter who you are. You might have a great idea, so let's listen and see what we can do.
Matt: 21:27
Yeah, cool. So let's turn to wrapping up a little bit here by looking at what's the future of Arsenal Yards.
Brandon: 21:33
I think the future is going to be great. We've got a great mix of retailers now. We’re really well leased and we don't have a lot of space left. I think we'll see maybe some shifts in some tenants. Normal right, you always have success stories and you have some not as successful stories that could lead to other success stories. So I think we'll see some normal fluctuation. But I think we're going to continue to grow with what we have and continue to add some interesting uses as things open up. I think we'll evolve and be dynamic and ever-changing.
Matt: 22:06
Are there any particular strong success stories from Arsenal Yards recent history, which isn't that long, I guess, to begin with, but that you have looked at and you're trying to emulate in the future?
Brandon: 22:15
I think our dining options have been very successful. It's a very strong segment of business here. There's definitely room for some more apparel and some more entertainment to keep it being that kind of dynamic environment. So I think they've done a fantastic job with what they've been able to bring in for a mix. So it's hard to point to one specific thing, but I think they'll continue to surprise and delight, so to say.
Matt: 22:40
How do you track success? Is it just, I mean, because obviously you can look at money, but how other ways do you track success then?
Brandon: 22:45
There's a lot of different ways to look at it. From the business perspective, sure, everybody's going to track it financially, right? What's the bottom line? What's the cash flow that you're making from the business? And, you know, are your sales offsetting your costs to be here? That's a big piece of it. But it's not just that. You know, I think if you've got a strong community response, you'll typically do well. You'll have a strong social presence. You'll kind of drive your own business. That shows also. There's a few tenants that are really good, I think, with their social media and driving awareness of their brands. You know, I think Jason Santos is a great example of that. Right, he's got great social media following and does a great job representing all of his brands, you know, even the ones that aren't here.
Matt: 23:23
Cool. Well, maybe to wrap up here, maybe the last question I'll ask you, is there any hidden gem of Arsenal Yards you want to send people to? Or, if not, what's your favorite part of Arsenal Yards?
Brandon: 23:34
Ooh, that's a tough one, huh.
Matt: 23:36
I know. Picking a favorite, yeah.
Brandon: 23:38
I don't think I could pick one favorite. But I think, as a father with young kids and looking for something to do with your family. You know, in all my time that I spent in the malls, I was never really able to engage with my family at work as much as I've been able to engage with my family here. So I think, from the uses that we have whether it's coming here for an event with my kids and having them be able to participate, seeing where their dad works and experiencing the stores that are here, or we get the opportunity to go out to eat as a family at one of the restaurants that are here, or go see a movie at Majestic. We've kind of done all of it. You know, my middle girl wanted to see a movie for her birthday and her birthday was right before Thanksgiving. So we took a half day and we did lunch and we saw a movie. You know, I mean it was just a fantastic way to kind of build everything together. So I think from that family friendly perspective, it really hits the mark for me.
Matt: 24:32
Nice. Well then, to send people off here. If people want to find out more information, where should they go if they have any questions or comments for you? Where can they reach out, all that type of stuff.
Brandon: 24:43
Yeah, certainly Arsenal Yard's website. Always the current happenings that are going on, our events. If by chance this airs before Sunday, February 2nd, join us for Polar Plunge. Our operations manager.
Matt: 24:56
Probably after that.
Brandon: 24:57
Yeah, that's all right, I figured I'd throw it out there anyway. But Neil is actually going to jump in the tank. That's going to benefit Special Olympics. We've already raised over $10,000 as a site, which is fantastic that we've been able to have that opportunity to raise over $10,000 and work closely with Watertown PD and Special Olympics on this Polar Plunge.
Brandon: 25:16
So I was really happy when Watertown PD actually approached us, said, hey, we think you guys have the right place for this. Would you be interested? And we all talked about it and I was like no brainer, let's do it, like we need to find a way to do this. And it was a bucket list item for Neil, our ops manager, who's an amazing guy, and I paid him a donation so I wouldn't have to jump in. Because not for me, but it's a bucket list item for him, which is amazing. So we'll all be here to support him. But it's going to be a great event anyway. But certainly check the website. You can always email the hello@arsenalyards.com email. You know you could email me directly. My email address is bfeldhouse@wilderco.com. No stranger to getting emails or responding, you know, and pretty responsive most of the time too. But yeah, reach out, there's always great things going on.
Matt: 26:02
Cool. Well, thank you for taking the time to sit down and share your thoughts.
Brandon: 26:05
Yeah, absolutely. This has been great. It's new for me. I've never done it, but I appreciate the opportunity.
Matt: 26:11
So that's it for my conversation with Brandon. You can reach out to him where he mentioned. Also put that information in the show notes. If you'd like to follow along with the podcast, you can head on over to littlelocalconversations.com. You can sign up for my email newsletter I send out once a week to keep you up to date on what's going on. You can find that in the show notes or at the website. Or you can subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you're streaming.
Matt: 26:32
For those of you interested in networking with other creative people or listen to a creative conversation, I'm having another live Creative Chats event over at the Mosesian Center for the Arts on Friday, February 28th at 830 am. There'll be light bites and coffee for those people who need a little extra kick in the morning to be there. But last time was a great event. This time it's gonna be a guest, Jamie Kallestad, who's a singer-songwriter. Have a short conversation with him. We'll do our breakup into groups again and have those great conversations. I'll have a link for that in the show notes or, again, you can head on over to littlerlocalconversationscom and there'll be a banner on the top of the site where you can click to find information for that event and RSVP, just so I know how much food and coffee to get. A couple of things to wrap up here, I want to give a thank you to the Watertown Cultural Council, who have given me a grant this year to help support the podcast.
Matt: 27:16
I want to give them the appropriate credit, which is this program is supported in part by a grant from the Watertown Cultural Council, a local agency, which is supported by the Mass Cultural Council, a state agency. I also want to give a shout out to a promotional partner, the Watertown Business Coalition. They're a nonprofit organization here in Watertown that's bringing businesses and people together to help strengthen the community. Check more of them out at watertownbusinesscoalition.com. So that's it. Until next time, take care.
